½ûÂþÌìÌÃ

meslo wrote:

I am a UK citizen living in Hungary. I have an address card and an EU registration card, neither of which have my photo on them. My fiancé has P.R. and is Chinese, she has a PR card and an i.d. card.
My questions are, do EU citizens/ British citizens living here have any additional cards to the ones I have?
Would it be easier to remain after Brexit if I got an ID card?
Can I get an id card as a current EU/British citizen?
I am concerned that after Brexit I will only be allowed to stay in the Schengen area for 90 out of 180 days as I don't work here, has anybody got any ideas as to what additional documents/ cards might help?

Thank you

Yes, good questions.  No-one really knows.  I think you're really talking about a permanent resident  card rather than ID card. 

According to the No-Deal scenario, the 90/180 day restriction will come in - that seems certain because that's the no-visa third country national scenario.  If there's a deal, who knows.  No-one knows a thing for sure about that.

I was at the recent UK Embassy Town Hall meeting in the Marriott, chaired by the UK Ambassador and jokey and amiable but utterly superficial and facile HU State Secretary dropped a bombshell that we'd all have to get new HU cards but they would be a straight swap (haha, yes, we believe you).

It's probable that the EU card you have will continue to allow you to move freely around the EU for the 180 days.   

No-one has actually said it directly and in large letters but my impression is the process is post-Brexit we're all 3rd country nationals with no special treatment.  That's looking like EU policy.

Good info Mr Fluffy.
I also as a 3rd country citizen wouldn't really know about how the Bretix thing will go but this sounds exactly how we 3rd country people are treated.
Guess it would only be fair for UK citizens to be treated the same way after the exit.
New cards, well of course another way for the gov. to charge in stamp fees etc.
It will bring in allot more income to Hungary by charging for new cards in stamp fees.
As a US citizen before my PR in Hungary I was only allowed in the EU for up to 90 days and had to be out of the EU for 180 days before returning.
This is the case in the US a well with foreign nationals.
One reason my Japanese DIL and son married, she didn't wish to be away from him for 180 days before returning to the US.
I hope the HU immigration office is ready to handle the influx of people applying for new cards and filling out forms.
Perhaps it would be a good idea for them to open up some temp.  offices inside local city halls to speed up the process.
Took me 6 months to get my cards in order the first time around.

My son and DIL are moving to Japan very very soon, ( stressful time) he will be treated by immigration in Japan allot better from my knowledge then most western countries treat immigrants. He can work straight away and get health coverage as the spouse of a Japanese citizen.
It's a very different process in Asia and in Japan, seems they know their stuff and of course I am sure they will follow all rules in Japan and not go by personal interpretation of rules as sometimes seems to happen in other countries ( Hungary?).
Well my best advice is to get in line early and bring a good book.

Marilyn Tassy wrote:

Good info Mr Fluffy.
I also as a 3rd country citizen wouldn't really know about how the Bretix thing will go but this sounds exactly how we 3rd country people are treated.
Guess it would only be fair for UK citizens to be treated the same way after the exit.
....
As a US citizen before my PR in Hungary I was only allowed in the EU for up to 90 days and had to be out of the EU for 180 days before returning.
..

Yes, that's basically it.  We're the same as any other non-EU national.   But I think we can come back after 90 days but have to stay out of Schengen for 90 days in any 180. 

The scale of the problem is not that large - about 10,000 people in HU.   In the UK, the situation is different, probably over 250K HU nationals so that's a significant number of people.

Countries like Czech Rep and Poland have very publicly put in place special legislation to safeguard the rights of British citizens in those countries.  The Hungarians have - to my knowledge - done nothing similar.  The State Secretary was as useful as a chocolate teapot in giving any solid information in that regard.  He said things were afoot but there's nothing we truly know of as policy - he palmed it off to the EU.  The immigration web site continues to be useless.   I don't think there will be a fee to swap cards.

The fees for cards at immigration were not too expensive from my memory but more like a hassle.
official stuff gets on my last nerve, even when I know it's an easy thing I over think it.
I am almost sure that it is 90 days in and 180 days out. I looked into the times a couple years  back for myself as we thought of going to Thailand for 6 months .
I.m madder then a hatter with the US immigration ATM.
My son filed all the proper paperwork, paid the fees etc. for his wife to get her date to become a US citizen.
Over $900. just for that part of her long ordeal with US immigration fees.
They have handled her case so slow that they have given up on waiting.
Hate to see money go down the toilet like that.

Marilyn Tassy wrote:

The fees for cards at immigration were not too expensive from my memory but more like a hassle.
official stuff gets on my last nerve, even when I know it's an easy thing I over think it.
I am almost sure that it is 90 days in and 180 days out. I looked into the times a couple years  back for myself as we thought of going to Thailand for 6 months .
I.m madder then a hatter with the US immigration ATM.
My son filed all the proper paperwork, paid the fees etc. for his wife to get her date to become a US citizen.
Over $900. just for that part of her long ordeal with US immigration fees.
They have handled her case so slow that they have given up on waiting.
Hate to see money go down the toilet like that.

I seem to think the figure of 10K HUF was being used for a plain old vanilla residence permit for 3rd country nationals. For EU nationals, it's like 1000 HUF.

I don't know about the USA, maybe it's different but UK government is saying 90/180 so British folks have to go elsewhere for 90 days in between.

Just great.

Now its 21000 huf for third world countries starting this year not sure if its changed for EU nationals.

Since i came back i am getting more and more anxious about staying in Hungary. hoping for the best in sha allah

Muibmuel wrote:

Now its 21000 huf for third world countries starting this year not sure if its changed for EU nationals.

Since i came back i am getting more and more anxious about staying in Hungary. hoping for the best in sha allah

Don't worry yourself too much.
If you have the funds there is always a way.
I personally do not actually see the big , huge appeal of living in Hungary compared to my former life in the US but then again it is a matter of perspective.
I'm in the US visiting right now and actually  have not   thought twice about Hungary even though my long time husband and some of my own family are Hungarian citizens.
In Hungary if you can afford the costs of getting documents and have the time it will work out .
Suppose it is all about what one is leaving and what they expect to happen in Hungary.
For me it's really all a lower living standard except for the ready access to good dental care and good food and drink.
21,000 forints isn't all that much to spend for a new life.
I have a US friend now living in Hungary who has no family ties to the country.
Seems she has come under some very difficult and straight out racist situations in Hungary as a person of color.
It's a bit disheartening to hear how the citizens of HU act towards those who are not able to defend themselves because of their lack of language skills and because of their obvious racial differences.
Not sure what the future holds for any of us but from what I see and hear but being a minority in Hungary isn't really a good thing to be.
I have no idea why so  many people wish to move to Hungary from other countries, it's beyond me.

Its a shame for a lot of UK people who have invested in homes in Hungary if they are unable to live here whenever we wish.
However there will still be the options of visiting for a short while like a tourist or if you have been resident for long enough to apply for citizenship.
If there are only 10,000 UK people here I dont think much effort will be made to ensure our continued residence by either side.

anns wrote:

Its a shame for a lot of UK people who have invested in homes in Hungary if they are unable to live here whenever we wish.
However there will still be the options of visiting for a short while like a tourist or if you have been resident for long enough to apply for citizenship.
If there are only 10,000 UK people here I dont think much effort will be made to ensure our continued residence by either side.

I think you are right but the other way, there's probably 200K+ HU citizens in the UK. 

While HMG* has said their rights are protected,  Messrs Barnier and Juncker and OV have said nothing very accommodating on bilateral arrangements.  Looking increasingly awkward for everyone and far too hard line.   

OV might think the folks are all coming back with their kids (i.e. slow the population decline) but the ones I know over there are all trying to stay there or become British citizens.  It's financially worthwhile if they've been there a long time and inter-married.

Other people I know in other countries are saying they don't believe Brexit will ever happen - even at the 11th hour!

*HMG - for non-British readers, short hand for Her Majesty's Government, that is, British Government.

I think you are right but the other way, there's probably 200K+ HU citizens in the UK. 

It is all a very interesting debate and situation. I for one never thought that Brexit would be voted for by the majority. However it was and no Govt really wishes to take it forwards.
No one really knows what the outcome will be but in the case of no agreement people will have to scuttle back to their original countries if they can not afford private health care and visas.

anns wrote:

I think you are right but the other way, there's probably 200K+ HU citizens in the UK. 

It is all a very interesting debate and situation. I for one never thought that Brexit would be voted for by the majority. However it was and no Govt really wishes to take it forwards.
No one really knows what the outcome will be but in the case of no agreement people will have to scuttle back to their original countries if they can not afford private health care and visas.

Yes, it's a mess and a muddle.  In some ways, the behaviour of the EU has been atrocious.  It could have been done in a very cooperative way but all it seemed like was sniping.

Instead of private health care, it'd have to be travel insurance which everyone should have anyway. 

More problematic is getting a visa.  Without visas, it's 90/180 but I am not entirely sure if a visa will allow one to stay longer than 90 days anyway.  BMBAH has so little information of substance.

For many folks who travel a great deal but the 90 days in 180 will be severely problematic if they have jobs outside of Hungary but their HU family live here.  I know of one British guy who is working in the Middle East and wants to commute in to see the family.  He spends between 4-6 weeks on site, 1-2 weeks at home in HU before the next cycle.   Previously he told me between jobs, he can spend a few months here.   How is that going to work out for him and his family life?

fluffy2560 wrote:

OV might think the folks are all coming back with their kids

I hope the come back. All of them. And that they will vote, because their right to vote in Hungarian elections has been significantly limited by the OV government. This group is clearly multilingual, can read other sources of information rather than just the government propaganda, and may be enough to get a more pluralistic election.

klsallee wrote:

fluffy2560 wrote:

OV might think the folks are all coming back with their kids

I hope the come back. All of them. And that they will vote, because their right to vote in Hungarian elections has been significantly limited by the OV government. This group is clearly multilingual, can read other sources of information rather than just the government propaganda, and may be enough to get a more pluralistic election.

OV plumbs the depths of ridiculousness by linking Juncker and Soros in an anti-Hungarian conspiracy:

klsallee wrote:

fluffy2560 wrote:

OV might think the folks are all coming back with their kids

I hope the come back. All of them. And that they will vote....This group...can read other sources of information rather than just the government propaganda, and may be enough to get a more pluralistic election.

Hopefully.

They don't have to come back permanently.

Just come in, vote and go back.

fluffy2560 wrote:

It could have been done in a very cooperative way but all it seemed like was sniping.

I must respectfully disagree. In my view the UK has been utterly ridiculous at every turn about this. No plan for what they want other than repeatedly asking for concessions that were ruled out by the EU prior to invoking of A50 and again, after rigorous exploration and discussion, during withdrawal agreement discussions. They come, they ask, they leave with their tails between their legs unable to make miracles happen.

Remember that the EU made concessions and arrived at an agreement with the UK. It is the UK that then went back on its word because of a lack of agreement by its internal parliamentary factions. I would say therefore, it is the UK rather than the EU that has proven to be the uncooperative party in these negotiations. British political dysfunction is the culprit. It is only a shame that British expats will suffer for this ineptitude.

The simple fact is that the EU will not give most of the rights of membership without the obligations of membership because that would be silly and threaten unity and purpose to membership. The four freedoms have been paramount to the EU's raison d'etre. It is practically the foundation upon which the EU is built.

It's not going to let the UK cherry pick what it wants. This should have been clear prior to the referendum. It was reiterated by the EU time and time (and time) again before A50 was invoked.

It is also critical to remember that the Good Friday Agreement and the Irish border situation as a whole was a virtually insurmountable obstacle to a clean Brexit without a customs union when the election was called. This was obvious to any astute observer. Fanciful promises about border management using non-existent technology may have rallied domestic leavers' support but it didn't hold water when negotiations were ongoing. The EU is not about to open a border to a third party country without basic reassurances that certain trade related agreements are in full alignment. That is what the customs union would have assured.

Also important to note that the UK at no point allowed Britons living abroad in the EU to vote in the referendum. Nor have they even decided WITHIN THEIR OWN PARLIAMENT what an acceptable Brexit agreement would look like. Indeed, we are now less than 40 days away from Brexit day and British businesses and citizens still have no idea where they will stand after that day. It's beyond absurd.

What we do know is that there is virtually note one business with more than local reach or economist who thinks this is a good idea for the UK at large; nor do the majority of Britons even support leaving now. This is largely because virtually none of the glossy promises made by the Leave campaign look likely to remain  unfulfilled. The consequences of this decision have become clear and the majority of people understand more and more what a bad choice was made.

The EU has retained a clear and completely consistent position since prior to the referendum just as it would have when dealing with any third-country. It is not the EU's mandate, nor obligation to concern itself with UK interests; only EU interests. Its actions are based on a balancing act between minimizing impact on the EU economy while safeguarding the EU's structural integrity and mandate.

The UK has gone down a foolish path, largely on a wave of resentment towards EU migrants, and based on their own sorry economic conditions. This, made even more foolish by the utter incompetence with which the HMG has (not) prepared for its departure. It has only itself to blame for this absurd venture, and the likely harmful consequences that will surface from it. Even today, very few people can defend Brexit with anything other than slogans of British empire spirit and the emphatic restating of proven lies about Britain's ability to make up for the loss of this trading bloc through new deals, and lies pertaining to rosey revamping of the NHS which in fact will be horrifically damaged by this whole mad affair.

We agree on one thing for sure. It has been one jolly great big mess.

marklivesinla wrote:

....
I must respectfully disagree. In my view the UK has been utterly ridiculous at every turn about this. No plan for what they want other than repeatedly asking for concessions that were ruled out by the EU prior to invoking of A50 and again, after rigorous exploration and discussion, during withdrawal agreement discussions. They come, they ask, they leave with their tails between their legs unable to make miracles happen.

Remember that the EU made concessions and arrived at an agreement with the UK. It is the UK that then went back on its word because of a lack of agreement by its internal parliamentary factions. I would say therefore, it is the UK rather than the EU that has proven to be the uncooperative party in these negotiations. British political dysfunction is the culprit. It is only a shame that British expats will suffer for this ineptitude.

The simple fact is that the EU will not give most of the rights of membership without the obligations of membership because that would be silly and threaten unity and purpose to membership. The four freedoms have been paramount to the EU's raison d'etre. It is practically the foundation upon which the EU is built.

It's not going to let the UK cherry pick what it wants. This should have been clear prior to the referendum. It was reiterated by the EU time and time (and time) again before A50 was invoked.

It is also critical to remember that the Good Friday Agreement and the Irish border situation as a whole was a virtually insurmountable obstacle to a clean Brexit without a customs union when the election was called. This was obvious to any astute observer. Fanciful promises about border management using non-existent technology may have rallied domestic leavers' support but it didn't hold water when negotiations were ongoing. The EU is not about to open a border to a third party country without basic reassurances that certain trade related agreements are in full alignment. That is what the customs union would have assured.

Also important to note that the UK at no point allowed Britons living abroad in the EU to vote in the referendum. Nor have they even decided WITHIN THEIR OWN PARLIAMENT what an acceptable Brexit agreement would look like. Indeed, we are now less than 40 days away from Brexit day and British businesses and citizens still have no idea where they will stand after that day. It's beyond absurd.

What we do know is that there is virtually note one business with more than local reach or economist who thinks this is a good idea for the UK at large; nor do the majority of Britons even support leaving now. This is largely because virtually none of the glossy promises made by the Leave campaign look likely to remain  unfulfilled. The consequences of this decision have become clear and the majority of people understand more and more what a bad choice was made.

The EU has retained a clear and completely consistent position since prior to the referendum just as it would have when dealing with any third-country. It is not the EU's mandate, nor obligation to concern itself with UK interests; only EU interests. Its actions are based on a balancing act between minimizing impact on the EU economy while safeguarding the EU's structural integrity and mandate.

The UK has gone down a foolish path, largely on a wave of resentment towards EU migrants, and based on their own sorry economic conditions. This, made even more foolish by the utter incompetence with which the HMG has (not) prepared for its departure. It has only itself to blame for this absurd venture, and the likely harmful consequences that will surface from it. Even today, very few people can defend Brexit with anything other than slogans of British empire spirit and the emphatic restating of proven lies about Britain's ability to make up for the loss of this trading bloc through new deals, and lies pertaining to rosey revamping of the NHS which in fact will be horrifically damaged by this whole mad affair.

We agree on one thing for sure. It has been one jolly great big mess.

Huge post with a lot to talk about but as it's late, I'll cherry pick.

Actually I agree with much of what you say but I am also dissatisfied with the whole thing.  HMG  have been a shower but the EU has tried to be a disciplinarian to discourage others.  After all, if it goes well in the UK, then it'll rapidly fall apart.

But let's go back to basics about what they EU was originally for. It was a trade agreement made to ensure peace in Europe. It wasn't about a superstate, monetary union or a European Army or "ever closer union".

Unfortunately, the way the thing has developed, it's seriously interfering with national sovereignty - like minimum VAT rates or parliament not having competence in all matters.   Business regularly complain about the EU's over regulation and interference in doing business - the UK bureaucrats always took the opportunity to gold plate EU legislation for their own ends.  Sure business likes access to the common market but they'd also like to do business without  interference.  That's on the one hand.

On the other hand, we have free movement of travel (it's good!) and we have cross border health care (excellent) and mutual recognition of standards, flows of capital etc. All great. Love that bit.

What I don't like about the European Union (regardless of the rationale behind Brexit voters) is that it hasn't and never has bothered to take a public and yet inward look at itself and considered what brought this about and what lessons can be learnt to encourage a reform and modernisation programme.   It's just carrying out more of the same, legislating on all sorts of trivia and wasting time on interfering stuff ranging from the power of vacuum cleaners to even worse things like taxing electronic commerce.  Tax has never been in the competence of the the EU, only nation states.  That all begins to smack of extraterritoriality.   I'm now coming to believe that actually the institutionalised internal EU bureaucrat belief system is simply incompatible with a free market economy.  And that's just it.  It has to be divorce because the marriage partners want different things.  I don't like the loss of benefits for sure.  But the EU is on a different trajectory to what was originally wanted.

As for the Corbyn support for a 2nd vote, what's the question going to be?  Cameron's question was obviously blunt but didn't give opportunity for a range of consultation or even a say in reform. 

And I do agree with you that not being allowed to vote if being away more than 15 years was outrageous.

We all have the same concerns. Passports and drivers licences seem to serve as I D on most situations

anns wrote:

We all have the same concerns. Passports and drivers licences seem to serve as I D on most situations

This week should resolve some of it with so many votes on the subject.   

Mrs May is probably going to go down as one the worst PMs in history.  I liked her when she took over but I cannot believe her head in the sand ostrich mentality.  And as for those donkeys in Brussels, I rest my case.

My prediction will be a delay for a year (hopefully).

fluffy2560 wrote:

Mrs May is probably going to go down as one the worst PMs in history.

Well.... On the bright side, it is hard to be worse than, say, Chamberland.

I think May was given an impossible task to solve. Penned in by party, and the political climate at home and in Brussels She basically was asked to square the circle. I guess I can only judge her in that context (but I am not a UK citizen, so I don't have much skin in the game, so I can be more.... shall we say *flexible* in my views.).