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@sprealestatebroker great for Brasil and China.

@Pablo888 what country is perfect or free ? surely not the divided states and for sure not Brasil.

Out here, you've got to pay to play.  The Chinese are not getting anything  for free on those loans.

They have their own  banks here to finance their own projects, whenever a concession is granted.  Such concessions do not come out for free. 

Just as of last year, they wanted to return the Rio's Galeao International Airport as they claimed to be losing money. The State did not want it back.  The Airport had more than one wing iddle.  Sao Paulo is the gateway City, not Rio anymore.

Most of their spent money went to places where they needed insfra-structure to flow raw  commodities. Rail lines, Ports.  And they pay for the right to explore.

The only interest they have in green technology is the green they are making from it. But hey we can post about our commitment to going green while cruising on our Chinese e-bike.
   

    -@KenAquarius

Has anyone seen the environmental damage caused by all the lithium and rare earth metal mining and processing?  The reason that large scale lithium mining has not occurred in the US, is that those mining contracts are tied up in environmental red tape.

I wonder what happens when I send my lithium-ion used battery to the e-waste recycling.... Does this get sent to China for recycling?

Countries around the world are all committed to recycling - but are they just exporting the problem to somewhere else? 

I am not advocating any one particular option  - except are really recycling or just dumping somewhere else?  Time to look at the mirror.

    @Pablo888 what country is perfect or free ? surely not the divided states and for sure not Brasil.
   

    -@kmitch0077

Tell me about that... just spent 1 week in Brazil and got a first hand lesson.... 

I am not looking for perfection in any country - just looking for some sense of personal sanity and peace.

The consumer will never know what source they are getting their power from. Just as in Calliforna,  they can green wash your bill.  You meet a percentage that is "green" and you can call it green.  The tresholds are rather low.


    -@sprealestatebroker

Not disagreeing with anything that you said but here is what has happened in my CA neck of the woods.

1. Federal and states provided tax incentive to buy solar.
2. Some people started buying solar panels as soon as electric net-metering came into effect.  People who had solar got the tax rebate and benefited from pushing clean energy into the grid.
3. PG&E started complaining that solar generation does not contribute to the maintenance of the distribution and transmission lines and raised prices for everyone.
4. Local municipalities started to complain that the rates were too high and started questioning why this was the case.
5. Local cooperatives started to ask for generation that are greener - and because this is a clean source, rates shot up again.
6. People who were fed up with the rising rates bought solar panels and batteries and their rates dropped because local generation was sufficient for individual use.
7. All appliances are electric (I only have a natural gas fireplace and a furnace) - and can be supplied by the same solar panels.

I am fully self sufficient from solar and the batteries covers me when the sun is not out.  I have not pumped gas for years now and on real sunny days (most days), I push more to the grid than I take out.

The morale of the story is that - yes - there is green washing everywhere - until individuals take the initiative and make changes locally.

Has anyone seen the environmental damage caused by all the lithium and rare earth metal mining and processing?  The reason that large scale lithium mining has not occurred in the US, is that those mining contracts are tied up in environmental red tape.
I wonder what happens when I send my lithium-ion used battery to the e-waste recycling.... Does this get sent to China for recycling?

    -@Pablo888

The environmental damage can be severe and the US isn't the only nation facing protests, red tape, and 'how much will it cost?' anxiety.

China, rightly or wrongly, doesn't listen to protesters and has contracted a pretty big portion of the world's supply. They don't give a flying rat's bottom about the cost as they have a near monopoly so it simply doesn't bother them.

As a side note - the next lot of wars and removed governments are likely to be in South America's Lithium triangle. China controls much of the Lithium there, but other actors want it.

The same goes for recycling. I can't comment too much on the US but I have studied the UK. Their idea of green is punishment for not recycling, but making recycling difficult and expensive.

Batteries are supposed to go to a shop that sells new battery powered gear/batteries. That shop has to pay for disposal, and get punished of they don't.

The UK and EU are making up new rules about safety every year, so recycling plants are few, far between, and expensive to build and run.

China is going mad to buy as much black mass as possible.

If I wanted to set up a plant here, I simply buy a machine, crush the stuff up, and arrange delivery to China at a handsome profit.

Other countries are trying to conserve Lithium, but few have been successful.

    The only interest they have in green technology is the green they are making from it. But hey we can post about our commitment to going green while cruising on our Chinese e-bike.         -@KenAquarius

Has anyone seen the environmental damage caused by all the lithium and rare earth metal mining and processing?  The reason that large scale lithium mining has not occurred in the US, is that those mining contracts are tied up in environmental red tape.
I wonder what happens when I send my lithium-ion used battery to the e-waste recycling.... Does this get sent to China for recycling?

Countries around the world are all committed to recycling - but are they just exporting the problem to somewhere else? 

I am not advocating any one particular option  - except are really recycling or just dumping somewhere else?  Time to look at the mirror.
   

    -@Pablo888

Other than the MIC, contracts  why would one think the US spent 2 Trillion Dollars and 20 years in Afghanistan?

I have ten dollars they dispatched the US Survey Team  along with the weapons to run the Soviets out of Afghanistan. That's is how they got money allocated for this in the first place.  Because the place was worth spending money on weapons shipments.

Under that pile of rocks there are untold  riches on all kinds  minerals.  Democratize Afghanistan, sure, make me a believer of it.

Not that they could foresee mining for Lithium would be such a big deal back in the 80.

Or why Evo Morales got run out of office on trumped corruption charge? Bolivia, a country once back in the 80's - 90's had a President every other year. If that much long.  They have the least expensive lithium to mine, all on salt flats.

Well, the Chinese are all over Afghanistan, cutting deals, building citiies out of desolate piles of rocks.  Right now.  I kid you not.

To be fair, not all mining operations have vested American Interests. World's  Largest Mining Corporation by cap rate and global outreach  is Rio Tinto, from Australia. 

Maybe the US has lithium?

Alan

    Maybe the US has lithium?


Alan
   

    -@alan279

Yes, the US has lithium but it is too expensive to mine and process. That's why companies like Rio Tinto does a lot of the mining in Chile and possibly Brazil because they are unencumbered by environmental regulations.

@sprealestatebroker is correct to say that Lithium can be found in many places including the middle East. Chemically, Li should be one of the most abundant element next to hydrogen.... But the problem is that mining and processing is nefarious to the health as it interferes with human brain chemistry.....that's why Lithium is a treatment for bi-polar and schizophrenia.

Not an easy element to work with - until we learn how to do it....

The old and now banned under a new name channel, hosted by Syamak ( Iranian dude ), had a special on How PG&E cleanse energy sourcing to make it look like Green. on the utility bill. 

Shortly, a percentage token amount sourced is "Green" and the rest is Gas Fire Power Plants , maybe some coal.

Anyways, people are all upbeat about BEVs, only they do not realize once there's a critical mass of circulanting vehicles on EV, they could as well spike up billing rates under the pretense they need to capitalize to meet  overdue upgrades on the grid to meet the surge in demand. 

As of last fiscal year, Tesla collected somewhere about USD 1.8 billion on its fast charging network.

Do not be surprised if all of these networks file paperwork to become utitilities.

@sprealestatebroker Do you have sources for your assertions?

Alan

    @sprealestatebroker Do you have sources for your assertions?
Alan
   

    -@alan279

Funny that this issue of Tesla filing to become energy provider came up... I got pinged today about participating in the Tesla Virtual Power Plant ->

Makes sense that aggregation of battery powered units could be considered a power source....

It looks like this Virtual Power Plant would be akin to a loan shark - i.e. the VPP will charge an arm and a leg whenever the local power utility cannot provide power to everyone.

Does Tesla keep the leg and give the arm to the Powerwall owners? 😀

Alan

    Does Tesla keep the leg and give the arm to the Powerwall owners? 😀
Alan
   

    -@alan279

No. It keeps both when it sells you an overpriced but inferior product based on hype rather than ability.

    Does Tesla keep the leg and give the arm to the Powerwall owners? 😀
Alan
   

    -@alan279

@alan279, No.  I think that Tesla is mainly trying to sell more of its Powerwalls.

You asked about evidence of battery storage to be used as a power supply.  The VPP is an example of a US policy to diversify power generation - from which solar, bio gas, and wind power are derived.  From Reddit, it appears that this has been deployed as far back at 2022.

If you read the details of the plan, the VPP only makes sense in case of power emergencies as suppliers (owners of Powerwalls) can charge something like $2/ KWh during times of power emergencies.  Normal peak power costs tend to be around $0.50 / KWh.

During the cold snap that affected Texas a few years back and shut down power plants, I heard that electricity was at somewhere like $9 / KWh.

I am not promoting any particular product here - just trying to answer your question about general country economic trends like @sprealestatebroker is doing - without bashing anyone.

In general, if Brazil allows for free competition in the energy sector, then innovative solutions can be concocted to link suppliers to buyers.

Remember that the electric system tends to have 3 parts - generation, transmission, and distribution. 

The VPP program is at the distribution level and closest to the user.  Ideally if the VPP is wildly successful and the authorities allow a concept known as "islanding" - which allows part of the distribution network to disconnect from the system, then it is conceivable that generation and transmission would become irrelevant for that distribution network.  But this will not happen - at least it should not happen - as this would make the system too tightly coupled and inefficient to run.

For a country as big as Brazil, there should be multiple providers of transmission lines as this is the way to connect various parts of the country - as a way to build energy infrastructure resilience AND allow multiple energy generation sources to hook into the grid.  BEVs and  Powerwalls fall into the category of one of the possible energy generation sources.

@sprealestatebroker, do you know whether Brazil has incentives to encourage clean energy to supply the grid?

Tesla VPP pays Powerwall owners $2/kwh in California. Interesting.

    @sprealestatebroker Do you have sources for your assertions?
Alan
   

    -@alan279

You are really a funny guy.  You and " I have a friend.... "

This is stuff is all over the media. 

The California interviews went anywhere from 40 min to 1 hour.  Siyamak Khorrami had the California Insider Channel  where he brought in experts who went at length  on their accounts of how things are run in CA.   Very much eye opening.   

The Channel got suspended and he came back with another title.   

No muckracking , no fireworks, just well conducted interviews with regulators, law enforcement folks, attorney, former leaders. 

As for the Utility outlook , that is my 5 cents alone.  I do not have a crystal ball. 

And Tesla Revenues on Fast Charging,. That came on Bloomberg.  A trusted piece therefore

This is stuff is all over the media. . 

And Tesla Revenues on Fast Charging,. That came on Bloomberg.  A trusted piece therefore
   
    -@sprealestatebroker

The first means nothing. Most of the media prints 'truth' based on political opinion and/or how much advertising revenue they hope to generate.

Trump is either god or the devil -  Fox or CNN?

If you trust Bloomberg, read this and reevaluate

Do you really think money people give a flying rat's buttock about customers or the environment ?

Affordable is banned because money comes first.

The population has to pay more so fewer take up renewable energy and pollution stays high, but it's fair.

After all, renewable energy is a pipe dream

@fred, do you have anything constructive to say in the forum that is dedicated to expat who want to live in Brazil?  It is the second time that you seem to be imposing your morality on expats who really want to make living in Brazil better.

If you really do not like how things are in Brazil, you should restrain from participating on this forum and contribute more to Indonesia's site.

It is getting really tiresome to hear your one sided ranting.

Brazil energy map:

Brazil energy plan:

BNEF has research and analysis on energy with some regional New Energy Outlook reports, but not one for Brazil:

I refused to buy a very nice little Chinese city car. I was very interested, more so after a test drive, but the price is silly.

I looked at the price in China, and that was close to half of the retail in Indonesia. It seems the same is happening all over the world.

The Chinese might be called communist, but they are really 100% capitalist, sometimes exhibiting the worst traits of that system.

At the end of the day I really dislike buying anything I know is massively overpriced, even if it is competitive in the market they are sold in.

That brings me back to my earlier comment about companies and governments not giving a flying rats about people, and giving the same about the environment.

However, the EV motorcycles are very nice value for money so my plans in that department haven't changed.

The bike does exactly the same job as a petrol machine, but retails at half the price and costs a tiny fraction of an ICE bike to run.

Here's the big mistake the public and manufacturers make - They think of the environment when they should be thinking about how cheap these things are. I'm shocked the Chinese haven't pushed that as the main reason to buy.

A quick bit of maths tells me my wife's ICE bike costs around 30 USD per month to run, but the gel battery EV version costs around $4 for the same use. That's taxes, servicing, and fuel. Add no queuing at a smelly petrol pump, and that's a winner.

Her bike is getting ready to be replaced, and the EV is looking very attractive.

A Citroen Ami would work for me. It’s twice as expensive in Brazil as it is in Europe. And it’s not legal to drive on the streets in Brazil.